This week our coverage of the forum on race sparked an argument between two readers. We are pretty sure “C” won this one, but we’ll let you decide for yourself. Check out our Comment(s) of the Week after the jump.
Pen: For James Brooks to say that is a goddamn disgrace! An education is one of the most powerful things on the face of this planet and if you can’t suck up the prejudice that you’ll face trying to get that, then you don’t deserve it. I hope he never has the chance to dissuade young, minority boys from getting an education because of his own lack of strength!
C: Pen, I know James personally and I can tell you that he’s not speaking out of a lack of strength. As a matter of fact, James has had to go through quite a bit to be where he is, and for him to be able to stand up and be as blatantly honest as he was with some of the most powerful people at NU shows a great deal of strength. So for you to say that is 1) ignorant as all hell and 2) proof that you haven’t even tried to think of the situation James, or any other minority student is in at this school.
Let me break it down for you, because it seems as though you lack knowledge of the matter. Being black (or asian, or latino or any minority) is a daily struggle. Daily. We unfortunately live in a white man’s world where anything other than white is just that – other. Moreover, minority people especially Blacks and Latinos are not supposed to perform on the same level as our White counterparts academically, especially. So to come to Northwestern, one of the best schools in the nation, backlash and opposition are especially present. Now this animosity comes from many places – from our peers who think we’re substandard because they think we were accepted into the school under affirmative action not because of our smarts; from other minorities at home or elsewhere who think we’re “acting white” because we give a damn about our education; and most importantly from society at large who fears an educated person of color. Hell, look at all the crap Obama had to go through!
You see, the struggles that we face should not even exist, and the fact that we’re here and we’re trying to make this struggle nonexistent at NU as much as possible is quite the opposite of weak. James was only speaking out of hurt and anger. He deserves his education here just as much as you do and anyone else who worked hard to get into this institution. All James is saying is that he would rather not see a young brother have to go through what he had to go through and become jaded towards people like yourself in the way that he did.
Pen: C – you have no clue who you’re talking to and I stand by my initial statement. You are horribly wrong about so much, though.
And I want you to tell me what “this struggle” at NU for minorities is.
C: Pen, I’m really interested in seeing what you think I’m wrong about. So please, enlighten me.
Also, there are many struggles that minority students face, too many name. But this link has a recent example of one: http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/10074. You yourself said that there is a prejudice that must be faced when trying to get a diploma. Facing prejudice is a STRUGGLE.
This forum would not have existed if the minority experience at NU was a walk in the park. The fact that students felt the need to address the problems that they are facing because of race shows that there is indeed a struggle. A struggle to be seen as equal to their white peers and to not have race detrimentally effect the NU experience, but rather, enhance it.
Pen: Listen, C – there is racism and prejudice EVERYWHERE. You can’t blame NU for the fact that racism exists.
C: Pen, I’m well aware of that, and I’m not blaming NU at all. I never once said that.
NU as a whole must assume responsibility of being the place that we pride ourselves of being: A place that does not show discrimination towards race, origin, religion, creed, etc. So while racism unfortunately exists everywhere, we should try to do any and everything possible to ensure that instances of racism are as few as possible here.
Now, I would rather not waste my time going back and forth with you. I have much better things to do. Clearly you are set on your opinion and I on mine. So let’s agree to disagree.
Pen: People are going to be racist, no matter what the university does. Face it.
You’re wrong. I agree to think you’re an idiot.
*facepalm*
How did C win this at all? How does C propose to eliminate racism/prejudice/COLOR from campus?
You guys are all seriously deluded.
I would advise minority students to come to NU. People were hosed down and lynched to eat dinner in the same restaurant as whites, I’m pretty sure you can handle standard ignorance/prejudice for a $200,000 education, dontcha think?
C won this not through her own argument but Pen’s lack of argument and proclivity for anger, overreaction, and personal attacks. Pen’s childish assault of “You’re wrong. I agree to think you’re an idiot” truly reflects the overflowing effort, reasoning and thought Pen exerted in this dispute.
Similarly no reader is swayed by the remark “You are horribly wrong about so much, though” when the accuser fails to elaborate upon what exactly the accused is horribly wrong about.
Pen, you are seriously deluded. You seem remarkably insecure about something. Get help.
“How does C propose to eliminate racism/prejudice/COLOR from campus?”
Why would you want to eliminate color from campus? Are you racist? Go back to the closed-off 99% white upper-middle-class perfect suburb that you came from, ignorant fuck. C won this mostly because she isn’t a deluded cretin who lacks capacity for sensible thought.
The problems with C’s argument are so obvious that an explanation is not even necessary. A “proclivity for anger and overreaction”? Seriously? I would normally agree that calling C an idiot is quite the ad hominem, but that person obviously is an idiot for standing up for this Brooks kid.
I’m not trying to change C’s mind because I don’t care *that* much and if I wanted to lay down every problem with their and Brooks’ argument, I would, but this comment section isn’t going to change anything so why bother? If you really care for an explanation, though, ask and I’ll break it down. Later today I’ll come back and do that when I have more time.
And to D – you are a pleb fool who completely misunderstood that statement. Go back to the cave you crawled out of and leave your spot open for someone who wants to be here.
“If you really care for an explanation, though, ask and I’ll break it down.”
It is not that I care for an explanation but you giving no explanation/argument beyond “C idiot and wrong, D pleb, everyone deluded, I right” does not give you any reason to claim “victory.” And yes you do come off as angry, childish, overreacting, and insecure, might want to get help for that.
I think youd want to give an argument for your own sake, because calling people “pleb” and an “idiot” and “deluded” (even though I think everyone but you can agree you’re surely the deluded one) isnt exactly the way to win a disagreement.
And regarding your response to D, its kinda hard to interpret your statement when you give absolutely no effort to clarify what you mean. You wanting to eliminate color from campus is one implication that sentence gives.
Look, the best way to beat the idea that black and Latino men are substandard academically is for members of those groups to demonstrate their intellectual capacities at elite universities like Northwestern and out in the real world. Pen’s issue seems to be that Mr. Brooks would advise other black high school boys to NOT attend Northwestern because of cultural insensitivity and ignorance (which, while technically still racist, pale in comparison to what blacks faced just 30 or 40 years ago and still face in the less liberal segments of our country) rather than face down that adversity and succeed. Black men and women were hosed and lynched just for the right to eat in the same restaurant as whites, so to give up over something comparatively minor seems short-sighted and foolish. Look at Obama, who has faced tremendous adversity while achieving legislative and executive success in the highest office in our land (even though many refuse to acknowledge those successes). Should he give up and not seek a second term because a white liberal would face less harsh resistance from conservatives and independent whites? Those victories he achieves are what changes perceptions and leaves a real impact on the world.
Look, progress takes time. Not everything is solved by forums and talk.
Oy vey… I thought the problems with C’s argument and Brooks’ statement was obvious, but it seems like an explanation might be necessary for the feeble-minded. As for Aw’s idea that I’m angry, childish, overreacting and insecure…? Sure. I’d also like to add that from the original comments on the first article, it looks more like C is the one making character judgments until I made the decision to call them on being an idiot. You’re just picking sides.
Okay, Brooks says that he’d tell young black boys to not attend NU because of what he’s experienced here. He may have been through terrible things, but I think it’s wrong of him to say that he’d suggest for black boys to not come here. I think an education is worth more than discomfort caused by racism, to be frank.
To address C’s arguments – first of all, James is probably not the only black person to have gone through terrible things to get where he is. Most successful black people have probably been through awful things as well and if they were all to suggest to those who follow in their footsteps that they shouldn’t, then how far would they really get? Honestly? Obama’s been through hell, too; imagine if he turned around and said “Y’know what? It sucked getting here. You guys really shouldn’t try becoming president because that whole experience just sucked!” C’mon.
I think that’s basically the gist of my argument, but I’ll address everything else: the “white man’s world” that we live in is changing. Period. Slowly but surely, it’s changing. We forget how the Civil War wasn’t even really that long ago, if you think about it. If you aren’t expected to perform at the same level as your White counterparts and don’t like that stereotype, maybe you should just… I dunno, perform at the same level? Or better? So that your White classmates will know that you aren’t an affirmative action kid. As for people from home who think you’re “acting white”, do they really matter? Like seriously? Obviously they’re just ignorant. If success and intelligence means “white” to them, then they need to check themselves. And yes, I agree – racist overtones in American society have definitely influenced a fear of the black man, but the one thing scarier than an educated person of color is a stupid one.
The struggles that you face should not exist, but they do. I don’t think they are exclusive to NU, though, I think they’re societal issues. Active racism has been around for decades but you can’t deny that it’s getting better. Could the growth into a post-racial school happen faster? Sure. But advising black boys to not come here won’t help at all. You define the black student’s struggle as:
“A struggle to be seen as equal to their white peers and to not have race detrimentally effect the NU experience, but rather, enhance it.”
Like I said, the only way to be seen as equal in this case is to *be* equal. You can’t prove that you’re just as strong in court if you don’t even go. I believe that the students of color at this school are just as smart as their White peers and that any people who think they aren’t are idiots. I also think that anyone who would advise a black student to not come here because he may experience racism is quite idiotic as well.
And an add-on: what about the fact that students of color at NU seem to group up so much? Do you think that’s okay? How is that conducive to diversity at all? Seriously?
I don’t expect to change anybody’s mind with what I’m saying, by the way, because I know there are others who agree but won’t say anything, but, I’ll admit, I’ve always wanted that question answered. I’m hiding behind the internet because a lot of people would judge the hell out of me if I said this out loud – you’d have a face to glare at for acknowledging this obvious phenomenon.
@Pen
You’re wrong. I agree to think you’re an idiot.
Wow, that was hard. I clearly win, since your argument is so obviously wrong and problematic that an explanation is not even necessary. Try again next week, deluded, feeble-minded, idiotic, affirmative-action-kid pleb.
i think pen meant that color differences will always lead to prejudice and discrimination
js
calder’s right…
the only way to make a significant dent in racial discrimination is not through these overblown forums. just succeed… be valedictorian and give a helluva speech on what you’ve had to overcome…